sandsifting stars - Page 2

Big Dave · 01-07-2003, 02:50 PM

I have the same view as wildthings. I don't have anything in my tank that is for keeping the sand clean. Well, I do have some nass snails but never see them cruising the sand too often. They usually pop out of the sand and find mush that makes it to the bottom of the tank. Anyways, even before the nass were added, and today now, my sandbed is sparkling clean white! Usually, if you are having an algae type problem, there is a deeper problem than getting the right clean-up crew. Something in the water quality, over feeding, DSB not mature yet, new lights, old lights, the list goes on, but I would try to figure out what is causing the dirty sand bed first. As far as the SSS goes, I would probably oust it. I had one for a while and it just seemed to make star shaped patterns in the algae!

I took it out and let my DSB mature. 3 weeks later the algae was about gone. The only other time I had an algae problem was when I moved, and basically killed my DSB. I had some nasty stuff but, let the DSB get going again, same thing 3-4 weeks and the sand has been sparkling since! HTH

-Big Dave

PS - Now if my snails could just clean the glass instead of making mazes on it I wouldn't even have to stick my hands in the tank!

JennM · 01-07-2003, 02:51 PM

JMO but I have yet to see a "podless" tank that contained a sifter or a horseshoe. I have not personally known any of those to starve to death either. I'm not disputing that they eat sand fauna, but I'm just sharing my experience that they have not been a detritment. But then again, I don't "do" dsb either --

As far as substrate, I vacuum mine (since it's not a DSB) and I don't find critters in the waste water either. However, when I pick up a coral to bag it, or move it, I DO see plenty of mysids and amphipods scurry away to other hidey holes. I contend that they scurry away when the vacuum comes too or I would have a bucket of pod-filled water at the end of it too.

Jenn

Jerham · 01-07-2003, 03:57 PM

Thank you everyone for the great info. I have a 90G w/ 4 '' DSB, 90 lbs. of LR. There are alot of open sandy areas that I love and want to keep clean. What else would be safe for a DSB?

Jerham · 01-07-2003, 04:13 PM

Oh yeah, I use RO/Di water and have 370W PCs. The tank is only 2 weeks old. The LR was cured and I used LS from LFS display tankto seed the DSB. Life is popping up all over the LR. Hermits and turbos healthy and thriving.

Casey · 01-07-2003, 06:54 PM

I have 2 sss in my tank and still have lots of pods and bugs

scotty · 01-10-2003, 02:23 AM

I have a 55 gallon with a HOB refugium. My tank is crawling with critters even though I have had a large sand sifter for over a year. Personally, I have learned to take everything I read and hear with a grain of salt. As far as sand sifters go, I am convinced a sandbed can thrive with one in it. But that's just my 2 cents....

JennM · 01-10-2003, 06:32 AM

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has positive pod experience with pod eaters in the tank

This is not directed at anyone in particular but somewhere down the road, I read somebody saying that sand stars were bad for the sand bed, and before too long, everybody said so. I am speaking from actual experience, not simply repeating what I've been told. I think it's important to weigh that fact when considering advice. Hearing and doing are totally different things.

Having said that -- and here's another of my observations: If you want to provide in-tank places for the pods to hide and multiply, make little piles of rubble, and they will populate under those.

I use little rings of 1 1/2" PVC pipe to display some corals. When I move one out of the ring, or pick it up to rearrange it, the PVC ring is usually teeming with amphipods and tiny mysids. Seems that the ring makes a nice little refuge for them, and more often than not my hands are crawling with them when I pick up a coral to move it.

I would think that a sand-dwelling coral on a pvc ring would be a great little pod house.

It works for me.

Jenn

Sylock · 01-10-2003, 08:00 AM

It's not the pods and mysis shrimp that people are worried about when they say that sifting stars eat the fauna. Any tank can get pods and mysis just by adding LR. It's the stuff that comes in good quality LS that can't go onto the rock and spend their whole life in the sand that you have to worry about.

JennM · 01-10-2003, 08:12 AM

What stuff then? My LS is full of "bugs" (various and sundry copepods, amphipod and other arthropods) as well as bristle worms, spaghetti worms and other fauna such as mini brittle stars and other interesting creatures. My rock and coral bases are full of those too.

When I looked at the list of creatures that come in detritivore kits, I've got all of those occurring naturally in my sand and rock, despite the presence of sand stars.

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Jenn

Sylock · 01-10-2003, 08:38 AM

Jen,
My thought process comes from a few places. I'm going to try to list some posts and such on how I got the info:

Post showing that the pods/worms/critters that come from LR aren't enough for a good DSB (Ron Shimek): http://reefcentral.com/vbulletin/sho...hreadid=119538

Article by Shimek (long): http://rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

I won't link any online stores here, but if you look at some you'll see that they sell LS and critters for the LS that I think make up the extra stuff that Ron talks about in the first link I provided. Obviously I'm relying on Ron's information being the most 'expert-wise' in the DSB realm.

JennM · 01-10-2003, 09:15 AM

Well the first link you sent me to doesn't name the names of the critters - I mentioned various arthropods, such as mysids and copepods, amphipods, small echinoderms (sp?) such as mini brittles and etc. but the articles you sent me to don't tell me anything that I don't already have. The second article showed some microscopic organisms. I can tell you, from having drawn water samples from within my sand, and observing them under a microscope, my sand is riddled with tiny creatures, I expect they are both plant and animal microbes, some single-celled, some more complex. It's really quite amazing just how much stuff is running around in there.

In my initial remarks I mentioned that I don't use deep sand beds and my experience is with shallow ones. However my logic says that if my fauna aren't depleted in a shallow sand bed, where there is less "habitat" for these creatures, it should be even less of an issue in a deep bed.

JMHO as always

Jenn

Sylock · 01-10-2003, 09:40 AM

Jen,
Experience is always better than just articles/posts so I appreciate your input. I was just trying trying to say that the pods/worms that come off of LR do not make a DSB 'ecosystem'. Being a 'closed' system, our tanks can easily have one organism go extinct from predadation etc. So I've always thought I would be very careful in adding things that rely on eating other critters in closed systems.

But with your real world experience with the shallow beds and the stars you have coming through your retail system, you probably have a better example. Each star would be different, but with the through put of a retail store, you've probably had sand sifters that have been at both the aggressive and passive ends of their species.

aquaticsdeptleader · 01-10-2003, 12:35 PM

"The IPSF live mud is wonderful ... I did a quick scan with a dissecting 'scope of a couple of subsamples and they had small brittle stars, numerous amphipods, and polychaetes. Just exactly the kind of critters I am after... I would like to order a larger amount of the mud." Ron Shimek, PhD, MT 9/18/98

i would assume that brittle stars would be predatory in the sand bed as well?

jim

JennM · 01-10-2003, 01:03 PM

Sylock, I'm glad you're 'reading' me as I intended -- not to be inflammatory, simply to offer another point of view. I'm glad of that

The critters described in the quote from ADL are exactly what I have in my system, and lots of 'em.

Jenn

platapus · 01-10-2003, 02:57 PM

I have 2- 4" SSS in a 100g reef w/ 6" DSB, and they have been their almost since day one ( 17 months ) ..... They are healthy looking, and my DSB is packed full of life...everything list above. There are areas in the tank they just cant get to!

I dont think they are as bad as some people think, its a trade off, some of my sand critters, in exchange for keeping the sandbed stirred!

MY EXP>