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Old 08-05-2000, 02:21 AM   #1
janmang60
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propagate mushrooms


I want to propagate some mushrooms. Any techniques to how to about it??


TIA
Jan

[ 03-13-2001: Message edited by: Brooke ]
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Old 08-05-2000, 03:32 AM   #2
horge
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Welcome to TheReefTank, Jan.
How to prop shrooms?
You may wish you'd never asked http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/wink.gif
The stuff can be like weeds, but anyway:

In-situ propagation (like if they're already anchored to the desired rock, but in insufficient numbers) involves taking a very sharp blade and slicing one trial shroom straight down the middle, across the mouth if you like, then watching two separate shrooms grow up happy. Repeat as necessary http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/smile.gif

Or, you can try slicing the oral disc (or cap) off of the column (or stalk), then securing the cap on the intended anchorage point with netting. The column will generate a new 'cap' within a few days.

If you're talking about mass-propagation, then slice the oral disk off. Snip it with scissors into pieces, and then drop them into a bowl of clean coral gravel. This bowl is kept in the tank, and shelters the cuttings from tank currents. Once they have anchored onto the gravel, you can glue the shroom-laden bits of gravel onto the target rock in the tank (using methacrylate 'super' gel glue). Glue sometimes doesn't work 100% on shroom tissue due to the copious mucus the beasts can produce, hence we glue the gravel to th rock.

All this is best preceded by ensuring the shrooms are happy in your tank environment to begin with: good expansion and color. Indeed, when they're happy, you may not need to step in for them to spread.

Lotsa other ways, HTH http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by horge (edited 08-05-2000).]
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Old 08-05-2000, 10:59 AM   #3
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Horge is right about the ways to propagate Mushrooms. One other thought. Adding iodide to your tank will help the mushrooms grow after cutting them. Keep your iodide levels up and your shrooms will reco ver quickly and you will soon have so many that you will wish you hadn't ever split them.

This is just what I have heard, and a friend of mine did this. He has mushrooms all over his tank (a good thing becuase it means he is going to give some of them to me at no cost) http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/smile.gif .

Good luck,
Andrew
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Old 08-05-2000, 11:23 PM   #4
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Ok, Im sure I will open a can of worms here, but how do you know when enough iodine is enough? I will go and search for test kits as soon as I type this, but what is the norm? I was to the understanding that Iodine is replaced when you do a water change, and I do a 10gal water change weekly, I have a 46gal tank so I do 25%. another thought is the fact that when you use activated carbon to rid smell and yellowness and other things, you also take iodine out of the water. any thoughts?

S
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Old 08-06-2000, 12:06 AM   #5
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Steven youre right on opening a can of worms http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/smile.gif Iodine is another one of the wholly grails of reefing. Those who dont use it and do fine think its not needed and those who do and get away with it rave about it and swear by it. A couple thoughts here> I dont normally dose Iodine, however I have used it in small batches after proping corals as it is a Strong Antiseptic. For the most part I gree with the theory you will get all the Iodine needed through water changes and additions of food.
The problem is further compounded by the fact that Iodine is hard to test levels for in an aquarium with the test kits available to the hobby. They are marginal at best and Iodine in seawater converts to iodide and iodate, different compounds that have different effects on marine organisms. I will be the first to admit I'm not a chemist so Horge or Tom Wyatt feel free to jump in and bail me out here http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/smile.gif
I'm taking the liberty to cut and paste an email reply Alice got from Eric Borneman on the question of Iodine as well as other trace elements. To the best of my knowledge Eric, Ron Shimek, Craig Bingham as well as the other marine biologists downplay the addition of Iodine and the other trace elements. Erics quote is as follows:
Hi Alice:

Yes, I'll be at MACNA, though primarily for the diving and research
opportunity, not the event. Feel free to post my response below
___.

Council uses the argument that since its (Sr) abundant, it must be necessary
and also therefore that supplementation is necessary. This argument is
invalid. Is anyone dosing sodium? Testing for chloride ion? And these
actually do have value!

There also seems to still be an aquarist notion that the "jury" is out on
trace and minor element supplementation. Well, only so long as ignornace is
bliss and aquarists continue to use aquarium literature to "know." Knowing
means reading critically, and knowing enough to assess real from myth.

Strontium is not necessary for coral growth or health. It is used in
skeletogenesis, but it is not required for skeletogenesis. Radium, Uranium,
chitin, organic complexes and other associated "garbage" are also accreted
into coral skeleton as the coral attempts to either move these out of its
tissues, or as non-specific inclusions. There are some anamolies...like why
P. damicornis incorporates a higher percentage of chitin in its matrix than
other corals seem to. But, there is no evidence whatsoever of any coral
requiring strontium for any purpose whatsoever. There are possible, though
conflictory, temperature related and seasonal related changes in Sr
incorporation, but nothing that suggests it is used for any purpose other
than calcium substitution. Even the one reference that suggests possible use
of smaller divalent ions for nucleation catalysis are feeble, at best.
Corals grow just as quickly and are just as healthy in its absence.

Iodine...well, it is required by some animals. Fish, for example - By diet,
though, not osmosis from the water column. In corals, iodine can be found in
high amounts in the central chord of some gorgonians and antipatharians,
primarily from deep water. No evidence to suggest why, its need or
requirement, or what the effects of depletion are. Other corals? Not a
shred of evidence that it is used for any reason at all. They obviously do
fine without supplementation, and I would suggest using dulse flakes or other
dietary derived iodine sources for those other organisms which may require
it.

As for the whole skimmer part of this thread, the use of a skimmer, depending
on individual situations and preferences, may or may not be necessary.
Certainly all my tanks have done just fine without skimming for years.
However, there may be cases where they are needed or desirable. As for what
is removed? Coral food, that's what. ALL corals use dissolved organic
material significantly in uptake as a nutrient source...also
bacterioplankton, and whatever is alive in the water column, including
detritus (particulate organic material). What you remove is food for
sponges, corals, tunicates, bivalves, etc. If your water quality management
doesn't allow for high quality water without skimming, tis better to skim,
without question.

As for phytoplankton, this phytoplankton kick is both a blessing and a curse.
Clearly phytoplankton availability is desirable in that it provides limtied
food for some filter feeders, and also food for the small worms and
crustacea which, in turn, provide real zooplantkon-type food for other
animals. However, and despite some usage by various soft corals, stony corals
don't really eat phytoplantkon. One has only to look at their cnidom and
lack of filtering appendages to indicate their prey sources. Soft corals
have some herbivorous tendencies, but most will get more nutrition,
especially nitrogen, from consuming other material. Herbivorous species of
Dendronephthya and certain other genera being exceptions. Directly attending
to the production of zooplankton within the tank or through addition of daily
Artemia nauplii will, IMO, be more beneficial that buying all these dead
greenwater products. Culturing Nannochloropsis is so easy, too, and better
than buying these off the shelf products.

Anyway, I'm finished with the tome, now. Be good

eric
Sorry it might be hard to read without seeing the whole context, ask ALICE, I think she'll know http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Old 08-06-2000, 12:07 PM   #6
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I don't nnormally dose iodine either. I only use it for a couple of days after propogating mushrooms. When I add the iodine, I suspend the carbon and skimming operations for a couple of hours to allow the mushrooms to take it all in. The information that I preciously posted was from my experiences and originally came from a LFS. I changed LFS when I realized that he would tell you anything to get you to buy more stuff. He went out of business, and now I have a new LFS. Now if only I can sort out the good information from the bad information that he gave me, I will be on my way. Thanks for the additional info on the iodine.

Andrew
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Old 08-06-2000, 06:20 PM   #7
horge
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My understanding is that the only reason Sr gets incorporated into coral skeleta is the close similarity between Ca and Sr ions. The coral doesn't bother distinguishing betwen the two.

Iodine, while certainly esential to reef metabolisms, is omnipresent. Matching quantities normally present in NSW (or synthetic equivalents) and the rocks etc., against metabolic demands, and factoring in the constant release of the stuff in a stable reef --I don't see a need to dose it for the purpose of supporting said metabolisms. If anything, the stuff (in its stereotype additive forms) can be a pretty noticeable irritant to a lot of tank tenants.
A lot of the reports on increased tissue expansion (unnatural in the wild, BTW) on dosing iodine could just as plausibly be explained as an attempt to increase light-absorptive surface area to photoreduce any excess iodine or to increase metabolic throughput to secrete the stuff or lock it down skeletally.

I do see a prophylactic benefit in dosing iodine compounds with regard to propping. If a coral or corallimorpharian is less than healthy, then you cut it up, you runthe real risk of infection setting in and reducing the tissue to brown goo. So you zap bugs in the water before they can zap your animal.

For what little it's worth, I don't dose iodine for prop ops. I just ensure top health in the target animal before I slice and dice. If iodine works for others, more power to them http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Tags
coral growth , coral skeleton , filter feeder , ron shimek , soft corals , stony coral , stony corals , tom wyatt



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