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Old 09-27-2000, 08:01 AM   #1
Staceon
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RTN


Hello all! Horge since we have had trouble trying to pass emails(at least from my end) I thought I would just post the orginial email here to open this up for discussion.

The question concerns an acropora that I have had for about 10 days. Its one of those coral rescue stories. We stopped by a LFS one night to pick up some litter for the cats, I wondered over to the SW department and saw this really nice size piece of acropora. I did a bad thing. When the guy working back there came over I pointed to the card that said green gonipora and said “is that this.”? He of course said yes it is, so this was one heck on deal that I could not pass up. The acro is fairly large for frag standards and looks like it is wild caught. Well it looks like karma is catching up to me because the coral doesn’t look so good.

I am writing this for advice on how or what I need to do to save this colony. The problems I am having started about 3 to 5 days after acclimation to my tank. I asked the guy at the LFS how long it had been there and he guessed a few weeks. It showed no polyps extension in the LFS, but had color through out the branches. The next day after acclimation into my tank the polyps started to come out. On the third day it looked really good with almost all the polyps coming out. Since than it has not look so well.

The problems that I can see now is there it very little polyp extension. The tissue at the base of coral is starting to recede. Also the tips of most of the branches are turning white. Lastly three of the tips have what looks like a diatom algae growth on them. All these do not seem like good indicators to me.

The coral is placed in high light and high flow, at least the highest flow I have in that tank. Its about 6 inches under the end of the 175W 10K MH.

What are my choices here? What about different water flow? And/Or light intensity? What are these naturally found? Should I just leave it be? Should I only be thinking treatment?

Horge I already went ahead and sent you a picture of this. This is my first attempt at a digital camera, so I do apoligize if anything is wrong or the picture is too large. If anybody else wants/needs a picture please send me an email, or if someone is willing to host the pic for me?

I read an old(1997) article by Dr. Craig Bingman titled "bacterial diseases of corals: perspectives and cures". In the article he talks about using the antibiotic chloramphenicol to treat RTN. I am having about 1000 mg of this sent to me. I will start the treatment early as tonight, probably tommorrow. Anybody care to go further into the exact procedures for this treatment? I have the details from the article, but it doesn't say how long to do the treatment? I have an old acrylic wet/dry out in the garage that I plan on using for this. There will be a rio 2500 in there to create a lot of current and 65W PC above it. The coral will sit where the bio-balls usually do. This may be crude, but its the only vessel I have left in the house.

Lastly, I think I am dealing with a textbook defintion of RTN. Do you agree? I dont want to go thru with treatment unless the proper diagnosis has been declared.

My main concern is the possibility of RTN spreading to my other SPS. I have heard of this, and know it is at least possible. I simply can not go thru that.

Thank you,

Staceon
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Old 09-27-2000, 10:47 AM   #2
horge
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Hi Stace,
Thanks, this clears up a lot of mistaken assumptions on my part when I wrote to you.

Here's my take:

It's unlikely that a coral would stage a comeback based on reliably constant energy input (lighting, in-tank nutrition) and tank params, then falter without a nwewly introduced external stress

If you do have a case of RTN (whatever the heck that really is --I'm starting to doubt my own definition), I rather prefer the Borneman-Lowrie line of thought, which proposes isolation of the affected coral. Their theory is that non-bacterial, external stresses trigger 'RTN', so if you give the coral its own volume of new water, you eliminate the trigger for 'RTN'. They also suggest dilution via water changes in-tank can alleviate the pressure on the afflicted coral. If they are correct that bacteria are never the causative agent, then Chloramphenicol is nearly useless, save against secondary infections.

Moreover, that antibiotic can be hazardous for some individuals, and is definitely hazardous for many useful bacteria. I'm not just talking about nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. The more benign bacteria that Acroporiids farm in their mucus aren't just a food source, but they also resist colonization by more overtly harmful bacteria. Granted, if the mucal fauna was already imbalanced/compromised, then I myself might be tempted to wipe the slate clean with antibiotics (in some treatment tank). However, antibiotics used improperly merely create resistant strains of the very bacteria we wish to suppress.

Here's what I would do, if I caught RTN in time:

Move the coral head to a completely separate volume of water. If I felt that a bacterial infection is present, then I would chance a prior antibiotic bath or better yet an iodine-solution dip in a separate container before the transfer. I would make sure the new volume of water had top-shelf params and lighting. If I knew a reliable Acropora food item, I would provide it (GP?). When the tissue recession is reversed, and the damage undone, only then would I consider returning the coral to the display.

If one of Eric B's suspicions is correct, that chemical aggression from neighboring coral is a trigger (and bacterial infections are merely opportunistic), then the returned, healed coral has the possible benefit of learned resistance (or immunity if you will) to such stresses.

No harm in whipping up a fresh batch of saltwater and ageing it. No harm in isolating the affected coral.

HTH, and I hope others with experience beating coral tissue recession will comtribute their views.

horge

[This message has been edited by horge (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Old 09-27-2000, 11:12 AM   #3
Staceon
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Horge, thanks for the reply.

Do you think what I have going on is merely the rapid change in lighting from dealer to display?(NO to MH). Or do you think I am dealing with some type of Vibrio(pathogen)? I think I am leaning towards the latter because the coral showed no expansion in the dealer tank and just a hint of white on the tips. Would simply placing the coral in the display is less light make any kind of progress? Or once it gets to a certain point treatment is the only viable option?
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Old 09-27-2000, 12:22 PM   #4
horge
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I suspect that any pathogenic bacteria on the acro are opportunists. That even if you deal with them (and you probably have to), the coral will continue to decline because the primary cause of recession remains.

It is not an issue of your lighting or water params IMO, or else why the coral's initial positive response to it? I'm guessing it is something in the water that you DON'T test for, such as chemical aggression from old residents (which can take a day or so for even healthy corals to deploy against an intruder/competitor).

Removal of the suffering coral to new, clean water helps everyone. The old corals in the display get to calm down and are distanced from opportunistic bacterial blooms should the acro decline terminally. The acro gets relief from whatever was stressing it in the display --you can even treat the acro without fear of harming friendly bacteria in the display.

Treatment with a diluted Lugol's dip (or if you must insist, antibiotics --I cannot recommend a specific dosage for Chloramphenicol) just prior to putting the acro in isolation. Then I'd provide the coral with light and maybe food, and see if the recession isn't arrested or even reversed.
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Old 09-27-2000, 12:46 PM   #5
Staceon
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Thanks again Horge.

I have never used Lugols before, can this idione be bought at any drug store, or do I need to look for it a LFS?
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Old 09-27-2000, 03:00 PM   #6
horge
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Stace, that's a Hydnophora, not an Acropora, and those Caulerpa surrounding it are giving me and (likely) it a headache http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/eek.gif

It's 2am here and I'm very very silly http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I'm no big fan of iodine, so maybe a quick check of TRA (Sprung & Delbeek) will turn up something on proper dosage for a dip.

I might be more lucid after sunrise.
Wayyyyy after.

Zzzzzzzz http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Old 09-28-2000, 01:33 AM   #7
Rick O
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Posted for Staceon.
http://home.mindspring.com/~rogletre...s/acropora.jpg
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Old 09-28-2000, 01:58 AM   #8
Staceon
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Thanks Rick, and for resizing it for me.
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Old 09-28-2000, 09:59 AM   #9
Staceon
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Horge I think you may have hit the nail on the head so to speak. Your comment "I'm guessing it is something in the water that you DON'T test for, such as chemical aggression from old residents " I think this is correct or at least I would like to pursue this avenue more.

See that little frag of acro off to the right of the hydnophora in the pic? Well I have noticed it has been "sliming", for lack of a better word, some since I put the other coral in, but thought normal it has done this before. When I got home last night that frag was really sliming, even had reduced polyp extension. Could these two have been fighting a chemical war? Can a frag that is a fraction of the size of the hydonphora cause this much trouble? Once I moved the hydo away the acro stop sliming and had polyp extension back. The hydo showed improvment too, polyps came out just slighty this morning before I left, but overall its in bad shape right now(something I would like to talk about later).

Here is a pic of the colony in which the small acro frag comes from:

http://ravenstar.com/fishies/9280094640AM99292b.jpg


You can see some slime coming off this colony too. What do you think? While I have you hear can you ID that acro(at least I think this one is acro) in the pic? Are the two corals in question ever found near each other? Have you ever heard of these two causing problems to eachother?

Horge cant thank you enough.
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Tags
acro frag , algae growth , bacterial bloom , craig bingman , denitrifying bacteria , diatom algae , nitrifying bacteria , polyp extension


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